| Kahler vs. Floyd Rose - Part 1 of 3 - Tremolo Comparison |
 |
Goods, Bads & Myths - Kahler vs. Floyd Rose
By dmometalguitar - 2008
(http://youtube.com/user/dmometalguitar)
It's hard to cover every single aspect
regarding the differences between Kahler and
Floyd Rose on YouTube. This document covers
most aspects regarding both tremolo systems.
The issues below cover all cam-based Kahler
models (such as Hybrid and 2300) and the
original Floyd Rose made by Schaller (some
licensed versions might be different).
(1) TUNING STABILITY
Kahler: Kahlers stay in tune very well with
dive bombs, but the strings go out of tune
after bends, which is a big disadvantage
compared to a Floyd Rose. For example, if you
play a bend on the 3rd string, the 3rd string
itself will go flat after the bend. One way
to bring it back to pitch is to move the
tremolo bar downward (as if you were playing
a regular dive bomb). This creates a
noticeable limitation because the player has
to worry about the tremolo bar if he/she
plays a lot of bends and vibratos. The higher
the bend, the more the string goes out of
tune. The lighter the bend, the less it goes
out of tune. So, if you play very light
bends, this problem is not that serious --
but it's still a problem. My "Kahler Tremolo
- Tuning & Bending Problem" video covers the
issue in detail. Other than that, assuming
there's nothing wrong with the locking nut,
Kahler has excellent tuning stability.
Kahlers normally go out of tune with
pull-ups, but I was able to solve the problem
with a simple and inexpensive solution: A
small portion of lip balm ChapStick should be
applied underneath each string where it
touches the cam. ChapStick reduces the
friction against the cam and makes the string
slide back to its default position after a
pull-up (assuming nothing is wrong with the
locking nut).
Floyd Rose: Because of its double-locking
system, no other tremolo system beats a Floyd
Rose in terms of tuning stability. You can
dive, pull up and play extremely high bends,
and your guitar will stay in perfect pitch --
as long as there are no problems with the
locking nut and knife edges. Some Floyds go
out of tune will pull-ups because of flat
knife edges (see explanation below). A
portion of ChapStick between the mounting
studs and knife edges usually solves the
problem.
(2) SET UP
Kahler: Because the saddles are adjustable in
all six directions (up, down, left, right,
front and back), Kahler has unlimited setup
possibilities. Most notably, like Fender's
tremolo system, you can adjust the action of
each string individually. Some players don't
necessarily set up string action following
the fretboard radius. This is a huge
advantage if, for example, the player wants
to raise only the 5th and 6th strings as
they're the ones most likely to buzz. With
most bridges, like Gibson's Tune-O-Matic, if
players want to adjust the action of a single
string, they end up raising the action of
almost all other strings because the entire
bridge moves from the side of each of the two
adjustable studs.
Floyd Rose: It's possible to adjust string
action individually on a Floyd Rose by
inserting shim(s) underneath the saddle, but
Kahler makes this adjustment a lot easier.
You have to unlock the string, loosen the
string, loosen the saddle, insert the shim(s)
and tighten the saddle again. You have to go
through a similar process to adjust
intonation. It takes more work, but because
set-up is not something you'll constantly
change, the extra steps are not that big of a
deal (except if you're a luthier and have
tons of guitars to set up on a deadline).
Any person setting up a Floyd Rose should be
very careful with the knife edges -- the two
rounded edges on the bridge that sit against
the two mounting studs. To adjust action, you
should never rotate the mounting studs under
friction. The best way is to loosen all
strings first and apply ChapStick before
rotating the studs. More experienced players
might also consider removing the entire
bridge before rotating the studs. It's
tedious to do this a few times until getting
the action right but it's safe.
(3) FEEL
Kahler: When the player moves the tremolo
bar, only the cam (or cylindrical base)
rotates. Because of that, Kahler has an
incredible soft feel. No other tremolo system
has such a butter-like feel like the Kahler
system.
Floyd Rose: Because the entire bridge moves
when you use the tremolo bar, Floyd Rose has
a stiffer feel. Yet, some players prefer
Floyd Rose's stiffer feel than Kahler's soft
feel.
(4) FIXED BRIDGE
Kahler: Some Kahler models, such as the
Hybrid one, have a small allen screw that can
turn the bridge into a fixed one. Players can
use the Hybrid model either as a tremolo or
fixed bridge.
Floyd Rose: It's possible to turn a Floyd
Rose into a fixed bridge by:
a. Installing a device called Tremol-no;
b. Blocking the back of the bridge with a
piece of wood or something;
c. Installing stoppers in the spring area.
(Continued on Part 2)
Tags : kahler floyd rose tremolo bridge dive bombs tuning stability bar locking nut sustain whammy bc rich jackson king |
|
Affichage : 31663
Durée : 473 s |
| Kahler tremolo bridge and tuning stability : no problem |
 |
I'm making this video to show I don't
experiment any kind of tuning stability
problem with my Kahler tremolo bridge.
I'm not saying the autor of the Kahler Vs
Floyd Rose comparison video is liar or
something like that, but just that tuning
stability problem is not a general case with
Kahler tremolos. I've talked with lots of
people on forums that are not experiencing
any problem neither.
Furthermore, Kahler bridges are not as common
as Floyd Rose bridges, and the set-up,
adjustments and maintenance are not the same
between both systems. The reason for problems
may be there...
Tags : kahler tremolo bridge 2315 tuning stability vibrato ESP Jeff Hanneman |
|
Affichage : 1635
Durée : 185 s |
| Gibson Shred-X Explorer w/ Kahler Tremolo Bridge - Big Factory Problem |
 |
COMPLETE LIST OF PROBLEMS: I briefly owned
the Gibson Shred-X Explorer, which is similar
to the Gibson Shred-V (with Kahler 2215K
tremolo and EMG pickups), but the guitar
unfortunately had some serious factory
problems. I'm not sure if other Shred-X
guitars are better, so I am only commenting
on the one I had:
1. Although the guitar comes with a Kahler
bridge, it doesn't have a locking nut! The
Grover locking tuners on this guitar are
definitely not adequate for heavy tremolo use
as I show on the video. I compare this guitar
to my B.C. Rich Wartribe, which comes with a
locking nut and, therefore, performs much
better with the Kahler system. I assume this
problem may also occur with the limited
Gibson Shred-V guitar because it has the same
specs, except for the body shape.
2. The machine heads are not aligned with the
nut slots. Therefore, you get extra nut
binding when moving the tremolo bar. Nut
sauce in the nut slots didn't make any
difference.
3. My Shred-x had noticeable fret buzz with
low action -- way more than the amount of
buzz on my other guitars with the same
action.
4. The guitar had a low quality nut. After
applying GHS nut sauce, I saw powder coming
out from the nut, lowering the strings and
creating some buzz with open notes.
5. The lacquer finish was poor. As soon as I
tried to clean the guitar with Dunlop guitar
polish, I saw some light stains on certain
areas of the body.
6. Even with a 50% noise gate threshold using
my Digitech GNX4 Workstation, I wasn't able
to kill the pickup noise completely. This was
a rather unusual problem considering the fact
EMGs are famous for being noise-free.
CONCLUSION
This is definitely a disappointing guitar
despite the fact it's very expensive. I
wouldn't recommend this guitar to anyone,
mainly if you're looking for serious tremolo
action.
I'm ONLY commenting on this particular
guitar. This doesn't mean all locking
tuner-equipped guitars are bad. PRS, for
example, has many guitars with locking
tuners, and they seem to work well. But
Kahler performs far better with a locking
nut.
Tags : gibson shred-x shred-v explorer guitar kahler tremolo 2215K EMG 85 pickups grover locking tuners nut bc rich wartribe |
|
Affichage : 4939
Durée : 582 s |
| Kahler vs. Floyd Rose - Part 2 of 3 - Tremolo Comparison |
 |
Goods, Bads & Myths - Kahler vs. Floyd Rose
(Continued from Part 1)
(5) DIVE BOMB & PULL-UP RANGE
Kahler: You can reach extremely high pull-ups
with the tremolo bar because the cam doesn't
touch the guitar's surface. The movement is
blocked only by the mounting plate. There's
enough room for the cam to rotate a
substantial amount both ways.
Floyd Rose: You can reach full dive bombs
with a Floyd Rose to the point where you turn
the strings into "spaghetti noodles." No
other tremolo system goes that deep. You can
also achieve very high pull-ups with a Floyd
Rose, but this depends on how much routing
there is. Some Floyd-equipped guitars have a
shallower opening in the back, limiting the
pull-up range.
(6) ACTION
Kahler: Because the saddles don't move when
you use the tremolo bar, the action stays the
same with pull-ups or dive bombs.
Floyd Rose: Although not a very common
problem, on some Floyd Rose-equipped guitars
high pull-ups can make the strings fade out
because the entire bridge moves and the
strings touch the frets. This happens usually
because the frets are uneven and/or the truss
is excessively tightened, making the neck too
straight.
(7) STRING BREAKAGE
Kahler: Strings might break easily because
their windings cannot withhold the pressure
created by the tremolo movement. The most
common solution for the problem is to bend
the windings by 45 degrees and cover them
with melted solder. This procedure increases
the string resistance substantially.
Floyd Rose: String breakage doesn't happen as
often with a Floyd Rose because the strings
are fully locked inside the bridge without
the windings. Plus, you can easily reuse a
string after it breaks as long as you have
enough string left surrounding the machine
heads.
(8) LOCKING NUT
Kahler: In theory, Kahler's behind-the-nut
locking is nicely engineered because it
allows you to tweak the nut any way you like.
Also, it requires no routing. You just need
to drill four small holes for the screws. But
in reality, Kahler's behind-the-nut locking
nut has various problems that directly
affect/diminish the bridge's tuning
stability:
a. The internal walls can easily get grooved
as you tighten the locking plates. The
strings might slip as you use the tremolo
bar, and they substantially go out of tune. A
good solution is to cut small metal shims and
place them between the locking plates and the
main block. I did that on my Charvel guitar,
and I've never had any groove or slippage
problems ever since.
b. Depending on the location of the machine
heads on the headstock, the strings might sit
inside the locking nut diagonally, making it
difficult for the locking plates to lock
them. In this situation, it's recommended to
install string retainers to make sure the
strings sit parallel to one another inside
the locking nut. Another option is to reverse
the string rotation in the machine heads to
reposition the string(s) in relation to the
locking nut.
c. The heads of the four small screws that
hold the locking nut against the neck sit
outside (The cavities are not wide enough for
them to fully rest inside and add extra
strength to hold the nut against the neck..)
Even if the screws are really tightened, it's
still possible for the entire locking nut to
bounce back and forth slightly when you use
the tremolo bar, affecting tuning stability.
You can usually hear a "click" when using the
tremolo bar with a loose locking nut.
d. The strings rub against the nut before
entering the locking nut. The extra friction
point may affect tuning stability. Nut sauce
is not recommended because it might enter the
locking nut as you stretch the strings,
making the strings slip even with tight
locking screws.
e. Kahler's locking nut is difficult to
inspect. Because the strings are enclosed
inside the block, you have to remove all the
strings and the locking nut itself in case
you need to troubleshoot any issue.
Some companies like B.C. Rich and ESP
actually use Floyd Rose's locking nut on
their Kahler-equipped guitars.
Floyd Rose: Floyd Rose's locking nut is far
superior compared to Kahler's because:
a. It acts as the nut itself without any
extra friction point.
b. It's really strong, and it locks the
strings a lot better.
c. The strings always stay on a straight line
inside the nut because they pass through
dividers before reaching the machine heads.
d. It's a lot easier to inspect. There's no
need to remove the strings or locking nut to
see if anything is wrong.
Although not Floyd Rose's fault, a loose
locking nut is a common problem I see on many
guitars. Because of the huge tension coming
from the strings as you dive or pull-up, the
locking nut must be tightly atttached to the
neck. If the two screws that attach it to the
neck are spinning because of bad drilling,
the entire locking nut will bounce back and
forth as you use the bar and throw off tuning
stability.
(Continued on Part 3)
Tags : kahler floyd rose tremolo bridge dive bombs tuning stability bar locking nut whammy vibrato bc rich jackson king |
|
Affichage : 22167
Durée : 592 s |
| Kahler vs. Floyd Rose - Part 4 of 4 - ADDENDUM FINAL VERSION |
 |
With this additional part of my Kahler vs.
Floyd Rose comparison, I show/discuss the
following:
1. Because the entire bridge moves, the Floyd
has a stronger response when you use the
tremolo bar.
2. Kahler performs better with double stops,
a technique primarily used by blues players.
Yet, your Floyd can have flawless double
stops with stabilizers such as the Tremol-No
or Hipshot Tremsetter. The Tremol-No can also
turn your Floyd into a fixed bridge.
3. After installing one of these Floyd Rose
stabilizers, you can go even further: Eddie
Van Halen's D-Tuna allows you to easily drop
from E to D on the 6th string.
4. Online stores like StewMac.com,
AllParts.com and GuitarPartsDepot.com sell
tons of Floyd parts -- both original and
generic depending on your budget.
5. KahlerParts.com, Kahler's official site
for parts, suggests replacing the springs if
your Kahler goes out of tune. I can't speak
for all Kahlers, but I disagree based on my
tests. After 15+ years of tremolo abuse, I
show that the Kahler 2300 model on my old
Charvel performs as well as the Hybrid model
on my B.C. Rich. If anything, Kahler's
springs are of extremely high quality!
6. Then I show a case when new springs are
needed: If you play with heavy gauge strings,
you can order Kahler's heavy tension springs
to counterbalance the string tension;
otherwise, you might run out of spring
tension, and the cam will tilt forward.
7. The wrapped windings of GHS strings hold
melted solder really well (see Video 2),
increasing the strings' resistance. Also, for
some reason, they make Kahlers stay in tune
better than some other brands.
8. The wrapped windings of heavy gauge
strings may not fit the string fork.
(Sometimes pressing the windings with flat
pliers and applying a bit of 3-in-1 oil
helps.) If needed, KahlerParts.com sells
larger forks to accommodate heavy gauge
strings.
9. With Kahlers it's important to stretch the
strings slowly and carefully rather than
speeding up the process with aggressive
stretching. Otherwise, you might break the
string fork and need a replacement.
10. With the Floyd, when the neck curvature
shifts because of weather, the action might
also shift on the bridge itself as you retune
the guitar. Depending on how much the neck
curvature changed from the original setup,
the Floyd might tilt forward or backward
slightly with the same tuning and spring
tension, affecting the action.
Kahlers are better in that aspect because
only the neck curvature affects the action.
As the saddles never move after your setup,
the action on the bridge always stays the
same.
11. Some Floyd players complain that certain
strings fade out with high pull-ups. This
happens usually because:
a. The truss rod is way too tight, making the
neck too straight
b. Uneven frets because of poor quality
control from the guitar factory
c. Action way too low
Tags : kahler floyd rose d-tuna tremol-no hipshot tremsetter ghs strings 2300 hybrid |
|
Affichage : 546
Durée : 600 s |
| Kahler vs. Floyd Rose - Part 3 of 3 - Tremolo Comparison |
 |
Goods, Bads & Myths - Kahler vs. Floyd Rose
(Continued from Part 2)
(9) PARTS
Kahler: The rollers get stuck sometimes. A
tiny drop of 3-in-1 oil with a toothpick on
each side of the roller usually solves the
problem. Sometimes, the roller might get
completely stuck, and pliers are needed to
make it spin again. Also, the tiny allen
screw that holds each saddle for string
spacing might go loose. When this happens,
you can hear a rattle sound when picking the
string.
Floyd Rose: The Floyd Rose parts are a lot
sturdier. Everything is tightly secured, and
it's less common to have rattle sounds as a
result of loose parts.
(10) TREMOLO BAR
Kahler: For the tremolo bar to stand still
(without falling), an allen screw pushes a
small internal part against the bar. However,
as time goes by, the internal part may wear
out, and the tremolo bar is unable to stand
still. It's recommended to loosen the allen
screw every time you remove the tremolo bar.
Floyd Rose: It's easier to tighten the
tremolo bar. All you need to do is rotate a
knob, which pushes two metal pieces (attached
to the bar) against the bridge. However, I've
seen many inconsistencies with this system.
Some tremolo bars don't lock too well, while
others are very stiff when you insert them
inside the bridge.
(11) SUSTAIN
Kahler: Because the strings rest on top of
the cam and rollers, they lose some of their
sustain. But contrary to popular belief, more
than the rollers themselves, it's the type of
metal Kahler is made of that has the biggest
effect on sustain.
Floyd Rose: The Floyd Rose has better sustain
because there's no extra friction point from
the bridge all the way to the locking nut.
Also, Floyd Rose's metal type ressonates
extremely well.
(12) HEAVY GAUGE STRINGS
Kahler: Certain string brands (such as Dean
Markley Blue Steel) with gauges higher than
52 may not fit the fork that holds the string
ball. Pressing the windings with flat pliers
and applying a little bit of 3-in-1 oil
sometimes help. Also, depending on your
tuning and gauge, you may run out of spring
tension. KahlerParts.com sells springs for
heavy gauge tunings.
Floyd Rose: Because you don't need to insert
the string ball inside the bridge, any string
gauge, no matter how heavy, fits the saddle.
(13) MYTHS
a. Faithful Floyd Rose players usually
criticize Kahler for having poor tuning
stability. Except for the bending problem,
Kahlers stay in tune well - assuming nothing
is wrong with the locking nut, and ChapStick
is applied to the cam to reduce the string
friction.
b. Some people argue that, because Kahler
needs less routing to be installed than a
Floyd Rose, the guitar has a better sound
because there's more wood left. There's no
concrete evidence supporting that because a
guitar sound is deeply affected by the
pickups, the type of metal the bridge is made
of and the wood type itself. And even if a
Floyd Rose-equipped guitar has a bigger
tremolo routing, the guitar might still have
more wood overall depending on its size and
shape.
c. Similarly, some people argue that it's
easier for luthiers to install Kahlers
because there's less routing to do. However,
some luthiers will charge the same
installation cost of a Floyd Rose because
they'll still use the same machinery to
perform the work. It's easier to install
Kahler's behind-the-nut locking nut than a
Floyd Rose locking nut, but as explained
earlier, the numerous problems with Kahler's
locking nut far outweight the benefits and
extra work to install a Floyd Rose-type
locking nut.
d. Some people argue that Kahler performs
better than a Floyd Rose with double-stops, a
technique used primarily by blues players.
However, Kahler users are usually heavy
metal/hard rock players, and double-stops is
a technique barely used in heavy metal music.
In fact, many metal players don't even know
what double-stops are. Even if Kahler
performs better with double-stops, players
still have to deal with the bending problem
described earlier because double-stops
involve bends as well.
e. Some people say Kahlers are better for
palm-muting than a Floyd Rose. Only a really
poor technique and excessive, unnecessary
hand strength will make a Floyd Rose go out
of tune with palm-muting. Many famous Floyd
Rose players such as Kirk Hammett
(Metallica), Eddie Van Halen (Van Halen),
Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Mick Mars (Motley
Crue) and Adrian Smith (Iron Maiden) play
heavy palm-muting without ever going out of
tune.
f. Kahler's tech support document says the
player should replace the tremolo springs
once in a while because of "metal fatigue." I
can't speak for all Kahlers, but based on my
tests, new springs didn't make any difference
in increasing or maintaining tuning
stability. To maximize tuning stability on
Kahler-equipped guitars, the player should
(1) use a Floyd Rose-type locking nut, (2)
bend the string windings by 45 degrees and
solder them, and (3) apply ChapStick to the
cam underneath each string.
Tags : kahler floyd rose tremolo bridge dive bombs tuning stability bar locking nut whammy vibrato bc rich jackson king |
|
Affichage : 19650
Durée : 599 s |
| Kahler Tremolo Bridge - Bends & Tuning Stability Problem - Full Explanation |
 |
Following up Kahler's bending problem that I
show on part 2 of my Kahler vs. Floyd Rose
video, I explain the issue in detail and show
a few workarounds.
Along with fellow YouTube user Jacques from
Netherlands, we test the bending problem on
three different guitars with three different
Kahler models:
. Charvel Model 4 with Kahler 2300
. Heritage VIP2 guitar with Kahler 2320
. BC Rich Wartribe with Kahler Hybrid
Although there are small variations in terms
of how they stay in tune with bends, they all
go out of tune after high bends, which
doesn't happen with the original Floyd Rose
system.
To compare, I perform the same tests on my
ESP M-II guitar, which has the original Floyd
Rose made by Schaller.
In summary, the bending/tuning problem is
definitely not a reason to avoid Kahlers.
Simple workarounds can minimize the problem
and give you good playing enjoyment. But if
you go crazy with bends and dive bombs, the
Floyd Rose is definitely a much better option
-- despite the fact it doesn't have Kahler's
soft feel and amazing set-up possibilities.
Finally, once in a while, I see some player
trying to deny Kahler's bending problem by:
(1) calling a set-up issue
(2) playing light bends or, even worse,
(3) making the player believe something is
wrong with his/her guitar.
Don't believe any of that. We've tested THREE
different guitars with THREE different Kahler
models -- 2300, 2320 and Hybrid -- and they
ALL had the bending problem one way or
another.
Tags : kahler tremolo bridge bending tuning problem floyd rose 2300 2320 hybrid bc rich wartribe esp mii heritage vip2 guitar |
|
Affichage : 945
Durée : 600 s |
|
|
|
|
|
